“Between binge eating”: A metaphor for addiction, but it’s harder to tell than you’d expect if you’re addicted
The therapeutic goal in any addiction, as we call it, is abstinence, and that’s one reason addiction isn’t an accurate model for what’s happening here. The therapeutic goal of treatment for problematic interactive media use cannot be abstinence. This is a skill that we have grown to know and use. And so we see this as much more akin to binge eating disorder in the sense that it’s overuse of a necessary resource that is driven by underlying psychological needs that are not otherwise being met.
It just kind of started to really wear on me physically first, I think. That’s when I was scrolling for so long, I was not going to sleep. It took hours out of my day.
A typical story about a student pulling all nighters on TikTok, and how it affects the everyday life of a college student
I’m going to tell you a typical story, but it will be different when you hear it. It’s about a college student named Jerome Yankey. He wasn’t studying for his exams but he was doing a lot of pulling all nighters. He wasn’t hanging out with friends.
It was hard to stop. It was really hard to say I’ve seen enough because there isn’t enough on TikTok. There is no winning on TikTok. There is no end point. You just keep going.
Add it all up, half an hour to an hour when I wake up, you know, a little bit in the free time during the day, maybe during a meal, another 2 hours during the day, maybe averaging 5 to 6 hours a day, even more if I had more free time.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/f2b7f7a5-ae60-4b5a-a795-afac01011dd1
TikTok: How the sun came up and I stumbled across it. It was really hard to stop scrolling after he saw the sun
It is that journey to say that this is my TikTok account. I do not have any followers. The only people I know on here are my friends, and I’m going to post and someone might see it because there is a chance. That is the way the TikTok system works.
Everything changed. He was scrolling when he saw the sun come up. He wasn’t getting enough sleep, and he was falling behind in school. At that point, he decided to end his relationship with TikTok.
I was just scrolling and then I would kind of stick with the endless content. I started to get less of a creative and more of a cynic after that. I’m just looking at the content. I would watch it. I would think that I could be funnier than that. Or, Oh, they’re not even that good.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/f2b7f7a5-ae60-4b5a-a795-afac01011dd1
Seeing the world through the eyes of Jerome and focusing on what is important to me, and what I can’t do about it
Jerome says something deep inside of him stirred. It could have been an impulse to simply look up from his phone and enjoy the world he’s in. It was like coming out of a fog.
When I took time away from the app, I realized I wasn’t unattractive, successful, or unpopular. It was the fact that I was comparing myself to the best of everything.
That. That is something that stuck with me the most about Jerome’s story. It all started in an innocent way. I can’t help but think about how I can keep my daughters from going to that same place, as a dad of three teenage daughters. I can see how much they like the app. I do see the appeal. We’ve made videos together. That’s what I worry about. I worry about their digital world and what might happen to my girls when they don’t have as many rules or supervision as I would in their real world. My oldest, Sage, is about to head to college, which means soon she will be the same age Jerome was when this all happened to him. It is hard to believe but maybe the same thing will happen to her. Thankfully, Jerome managed to figure it out on his own. I know some people can’t do that. In fact, sometimes it gets so bad people need medical help.
It is there as a resource for helping those children and families who have really gone down the rabbit hole, if you will, of gaming, of social media and of what we call information bingeing.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/f2b7f7a5-ae60-4b5a-a795-afac01011dd1
What do we really need to know about Screen Media? A brave new world that we’ll have to figure out as we go along, but with a little help from our parents
We’re in a brave new world that we’re going to have to figure out as we go along. And it’s not even generational anymore. I mean, I have 17 year old patients who say, you know, I’m cool, but I really worry about my 14 year old sibling because this environment is morphing and evolving so rapidly.
Before the lockdown and we went to virtual visits. When I see kids who are having a hard time using interactive media, the parents will wait until the night before or morning of the visit to take them to the doctor, which can lead to a 30% no show rate. And of course, the kids would say, no effin way, I’m out of here. Our no show rate dropped to zero because they were comfortable in the virtual world.
What I found out is that I knew a lot more than my parents did about social media. Dr. Rich advised my parents to listen to me when I say something about screens.
I worked in the film industry as a child. You know, I love Screen Media, but I also respect it, you know? There’s a deep respect for a person in a love affair.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/f2b7f7a5-ae60-4b5a-a795-afac01011dd1
What’s up with a parent? What is it that the parent wants to tell you? A source for worry about parents and a point of pain for parents
If you have a parent bringing their child in to see you, they’re doing it because they’re worried. If a parent takes their child to the doctor and leaves alone for something, it’s because they are worried. You know, they’ve been having pain, they’ve been unable to keep food down, whatever it may be. They are coming into you with a worry. What is the worry? Exactly. Like I get the worry is that they, I think my kid is spending too much time on a screen. Ergo, what?
Well, what the parents see is the young person essentially withdrawing from various aspects of her or his life. You know, they are not getting up for school. They stay up all night playing computer games, on social media or whatever. The young person withdrawing from them most intensely is what they see. The kid is in their room. The kid, you know, is on screen. Instead of eating together, you should spend time with the family. That is the point of pain for parents.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/f2b7f7a5-ae60-4b5a-a795-afac01011dd1
How Do You Feel in Your Life? What Are You Really Seeking? What Have You Don’t Know? What Can You Expect to Learn About Addiction in Medicine?
Do you define what is too much for the patient or the family? Limits in medicine have to be defined. That’s how you get lab results within normal limits. What is within normal limits here?
They have a problem when their functions are impaired in some way. They are not getting enough sleep. They are overeating. They are missing school or falling asleep in school. They are withdrawing from their friends. And actually, one of the things I do with these young people in the first visit, if I can, if they will let me through the chink in the armor is try to identify their pain points, the things that they wish were going better, whether it be school or. I wish that I had more friends and that it wasn’t so bad that over x number of hours is problematic. I want to look more at what their life is from the time they wake up to the time they go to sleep. So I think that it really has been about how are you feeling in your life? How are you doing? Is the grades that you get in school reflective of your capabilities? They’ll usually say no. We will explore why that might be.
It would include eating disorders, substance use disorders and other related disorders. And what it has in common with those is that these are behaviors that are trying to make them feel better or feel more in control of things. And so I don’t really see social media or the Internet as, quote, causing anxiety, depression, etc., as as it has been framed by some so much as it is an enabler of anxiety and depression that may or may not have happened anyway at this stage of life. It provides them with a place where anxiety, depression and other feelings can be alleviated, even if they aren’t noticed otherwise.
If you were seeing a patient in a world with less screen time or social media, you would want to choose one of them. 15 years ago. Did you know what, 20 years ago, whatever it may be. Is that kid still seeing you? TV watching or some other type of hyper binge activity is where it would be instead of social media.
And that’s why I sort of move away from addiction as a model, because we as a society use the term addiction as pejorative. We approach addiction as a punishment, not a cure, because we think of it as weak people with weak character. These kids have short term difficulties withdrawing from these behaviors. But when one understands that it is not the behavior doing something to the young person, but the young person seeking out and pursuing this behavior because it makes her or him feel better because it is alleviating their anxiety or it is helping them who have ADHD and have spent the entire school day feeling behind Clueless, you know, like they’re dumb. Including their social interactions where they can’t keep on top of a conversation. They come home and they sit down in front of a screen and play a first person shooter. That universe is in control of them, they are better suited for a game that encourages distraction, hyper vigilance and other things that can be problematic in a classroom setting, and they are also better suited to a game that stimulates distractibility, hyper vigilance, and other things that can be problematic in
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/f2b7f7a5-ae60-4b5a-a795-afac01011dd1
How do you feel all day, and then come home and you can recover some sense of control? — That’s a fascinating analogy, doc
That’s fascinating. That’s a really, especially that idea of how you might have a day like you described, where you’re feeling behind all day and then you come home and you can regain some sense of control. That sounds like it’s familiar, doc. Frankly, it sounds familiar in terms of what I may see with my kids, but even myself to some extent, you know, like I will find myself playing some silly game on planes, you know, and things because I’m. I need to regain some sense of control. Maybe I need some wins. I need a few wins because I have had a lot of losses, but I can beat this computer.
I had to stop my tracks when Dr. Rich said that last point. If you want to help someone with an addiction to alcohol or cigarets, you should ask them to give those things up. Abstinence makes sense. But again, for most people these days, that’s simply not realistic with technology, let’s face it. So Dr. Rich’s approach is let’s learn to live with it and along the way, respect it. Look, I know that’s a huge shift from the doom and gloom warnings. We often hear that social media is harming us like a bad drug and that it. Needs to be cut out of our lives.
But I feel like they’re good at teaching you how to use a tool well, and this might be a little bit of a problem for me. And so the question that that comes up in my mind is like, is my son worse off because his dad is a Internet guy and he’s going to be on the Internet the whole time, all the time? And like and there’s no way I could be like, you can’t use social media. He’s going to be like, What do you do all day, every day? I would like for more people with children who used to have social media in their lives to be able to have better conversations about it or discuss it better. It’s a little like candy, and I think it’s similar to any other type of item that feels really good without a lot. Where you know it, it tastes feel good, but it doesn’t provide a lot of substance. I hope that we can get to a place where we know how to use it. You know, it’s okay to have some, but you’re going to have to have some real food to.
Think of it as a power tool, more like an automobile, sort of framing. I think it’s really interesting as my children are starting to drive. I think about that all the time as well. What is the biggest problem with my teenagers? When I say far and away, my biggest concern is if they use it when they’re behind the wheel of a car away, because that can be disastrous in a second. Do I worry about how much they’re using it overall? Sure. I am concerned more about when they are using it and what they are doing with it.
What really matters is that we are both consuming and creating in this space and that we’re using it. So something that would be perfectly fine, you know, in the middle of the day between things you don’t want your kid doing at three in the morning, in in bed at night interrupting their sleep, or you don’t want them sitting at the dinner table, you know, online, etc.. We should really focus on the content. And is this healthy content? This content is helpful or not? What’s the context in which they are doing it? And I think the one place that screen time comes in is really what is this displacing that I could be doing? Yes. I was wondering if I was having a conversation with my mom or dad. Could I could I be out playing with my friends? That’s where the online space’s seductiveness can get in the way of the rich and diverse menu of experience that’s helpful to growing up.
Baptism by Fire: Dr. Rich’s Advice on How to Fix Your Family’s Technicolor and How to Keep It Up
I’m getting his advice on improving my family’s relationship with technology. Stay tuned. Now we go back to Chasing Life. Before we hear more about Dr. Rich, I want you to meet one of his patients.
Dr. Rich saw Allison for the first time as a preventive measure. There wasn’t yet a problem, but her mom, Amy, says that she was struggling to raise Allison and her siblings in a world that was so different from the one that she grew up in.
The TV was in the back of my dad’s closet, and was broken when I had my tonsils out. I didn’t have a television until I was 16. So coming at that, you know, with screens everywhere, raising kids, it was definitely baptism by fire.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/f2b7f7a5-ae60-4b5a-a795-afac01011dd1
What’s Happening When You’re Not Sleeping, or What Happens When You Can’t Sleep? – A Wellness Check for Smartphone Usage
I implemented downtime where I can’t use my phone until 715 in the morning, and then I can’t use it after 830 so I don’t fall asleep. I have limits on how much time I can spend on the video-sharing site. I can only play games for a certain amount of time. I only spend a certain amount of time on other apps. I don’t spend a lot of time scrolling.
It’s pretty impressive. And again, keep in mind, she’s only 13. Allison, I can talk about my feelings for your parents. We often think of going to the doctor for checkups to help prevent future health problems. And in many ways, that is what your parents did for you here as well. It’s for all of your friends. The conversation with Dr. Rich is supposed to help you. Think of it as a wellness check for smartphone usage.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/f2b7f7a5-ae60-4b5a-a795-afac01011dd1
How do you gain the trust of the patients you treat? The old man may not be an old man; but he is a beautiful man
How do you gain the trust of the patients you treat? I am not saying that they’re looking at you and saying this guy is an old man. The two of you are the same age. That’s what I’m saying. How can they understand my world? How can you increase your trust?
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/f2b7f7a5-ae60-4b5a-a795-afac01011dd1
What I’ve Learned About Grand Theft Auto, and How I’m Trying to Help Them: What Is Happening With My Kids?
I ask them what games they play, or what socia-, seriously. You know, and I show them that I am knowledgeable about it in ways that are not pejorative, that are not saying it’s a bad place. I’m thinking of it as the world in which they live. And I think that’s a mistake that a lot of parents make, which is they’re sort of dealing with it as something else. They’re standing at the top of the basement stairs saying, turn off Grand Theft Auto. I hate that. What I encourage the parents to do is sit down next to their child and play Grand Theft Auto with them, because there’s some really interesting things that happen then. It’s bad for you, you’re saying that I love you, and I care about you, so get rid of it. I would like to understand how you interact with me. I need to understand what you’re doing. You ask your kid how to steal a car, after you figure out how to do 47 different moves with your thumbs. We can talk about why we want to rehearse it over and over and over again. Right. You’re coming from a very different place. You are that child’s student and you are learning that from them. You’re changing the power differential in ways that are really meaningful to the kid, which is, I care about what you do. I care about you and you’re not wagging a finger at them as you’re saying, so you’re giving them a way to move on. That is not a punishment at all, it’s the next step.
People must come to you all the time and say, when you distill it all down, then is there a best way, not a right way, but is there a best way to raise kids in an increasingly digital world? Like, what are the other top sort of tips that you give?
At the end of the day, my biggest question for Dr. Rich wasn’t really about the data. I wanted to know where this was going, when he looked at it. Does he think the future is bright?
I am hopeful. I believe that optimism is a occupational hazard as a doctor. But I am hopeful because of what I hear from the kids. And so I think that we will get better. We will also encounter problems we don’t even anticipate yet. I think things will get better. And yes, there will be some potholes in the road. The real question comes down to will we be able to spot those potholes and steer around them? Are we going to have to deal with them as problems, or will we hit them? But either way, I’m confident that we can do this. We have to be prepared for problems to occur and be able to solve them, without guilt.
I got to tell you, you know, this season has been pretty heavy so far. It’s been very personal. I’ve had conversations with my three teenage daughters that have been so illuminating and so wonderful and at times frightening, to be honest. They live another life, their digital life, which I simply don’t know as much about. We sometimes fear what we don’t know about the dangers of social media and screen time. But, you know, I realize something else as well, something that frankly surprised me a bit. And that is despite the worry and the concern, I do realize that our phones and the Internet, it can be a sincere source of joy and connection and learning for so many people. I was so excited to chat with Hank. He’s someone that kids like, my daughters look up to.
Get in the habit of taking a break, so that you can both better understand the effect that your relationship with technology is having on you, and then also appreciate its benefits more.
I think I could stop using social media. Snapchat would be a little bit harder to give up because that’s my probably my main source of communication.
Chasing Life: How Social Media and Online Time Impact Educational Studies: An Interview With Hank Green, Dan Rind, Grace Walker and Eryn Mathewson
CNN Audio is the producer of Chasing Life. Grace Walker, Eryn Mathewson and David Rind are part of the production team. The senior producer is Haley Thomas. Tommy Bazarian is our engineer and the medical writer Andrea Kane. Dan is our technical director. The executive producer of CNN is Steve Lickteig. And a special thanks to Ben Tinker, Amanda Sealy and Nadia Kounang of CNN Health and Katie Hinman.
We are talking about the risks of using social media and online time. What about the educational side of the internet? Hank Green, one of the earliest content creators, talks to Dr. Gupta on this episode. The state of the internet, its responsibility and how to handle harsh online comments are some of the topics discussed by Hank and Sanjay. They want to know if the future of the internet is utopian. Dystopian? Maybe both?
I use the Internet to help people learn and understand more of their universe and the mysteries of it all, and to help them excel in school. That’s nice and it’s fun. And like, I get so much joy from that.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/6c51819a-d613-4cff-9637-afbb0016bec8
Hank Green: A YouTuber and a Father of Tenss of Million Followers: A Conversation with Tim and Jan Green (Episodes 6c51819a)
The man is Hank Green. He is an author, a science writer and a person on the internet. He started on YouTube in 2007. Think about that. That was before the term content creator was even a thing. The digital evolution played out in real time.
It happened to me in 2012 when I noticed a lot of cruel prank on YouTube, it was like a lot of guys trying to get attention.
He was one of the first people to get famous from YouTube. He was making vlogs with his brother, who’s a writer, John Green, and he was also doing something that I can really relate to, trying to educate people. Along the way, Hank got quite a following. A million and a half followers on Twitter, 7 million on Tik Tok and tens of millions on YouTube channels with his brother, some of which are shown in schools throughout the country. Hank is also a dad, so I wanted to speak to him today. We have the same concerns.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/6c51819a-d613-4cff-9637-afbb0016bec8
What’s Happening On The Other Side Of The Screen? Hank Green, the Chief Medical Correspondent for CNN, Chasing Life
Is my son worse off because he’s going to see his dad on the internet all the time? It was like that all the time. You can’t use social media like I’m saying. He’s going to be like, what do you do?
So far in the season, I’ve been asking professors and doctors and experts some pretty tough questions about screen time and social media. I wanted to speak with someone who makes the content that we see when scrolling.
Now we’re all comfortable with the idea that the internet is good and bad and that it’s possible to hit someone in the head with it, or you can build a house with a hammer.
Today, my conversation with Hank Green, a content creator and a fellow dad, about what life is like on the other side of the screen. I am the chief medical correspondent for CNN. This is Chasing Life.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/6c51819a-d613-4cff-9637-afbb0016bec8
When I’m a Cross-Generational Scientist, I’ve been asked to share my experiences with the world. That’s ok, but not so easy
I do. And I think that the the idea of teaching people science in particular, just as a scientist myself, I think is super important. Three teenagers with their videos have been shown in their classrooms. So when I told them that I was interviewing you, they I think they also knew you. It’s pretty cool that you’re cross-generational.
Yeah. And I have to say, these are tough conversations. I think Hank and I have had 17 and 13 as parents. The other day, my 17 year old told me that he probably wouldn’t allow his kids to be on social media as early as he was. It is a punch in the gut to hear that since I thought I was a good parent.
Do we live in the world where we’re supposed to live, and how we do that, and what do we think about it? — a little bit optimistic, but how to find the balance
But I guess the flip side of that is that she’s very aware of of what it’s done for her, done to her. I think she made me a little bit optimistic, because she would dial some of that back. I feel like a lot of the time. In medicine we see this every now and then, to assume the worst case scenario. We have to assume the worst, hope for the best, but assume the worst. And everything that we do in terms of our how we respond is, is that that worst case scenario. Most people do not have that situation. So how to find the balance there? I don’t know the answer and I’m curious as to how you think about it.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/6c51819a-d613-4cff-9637-afbb0016bec8
What is the metaphor of rubbish versus real food? The problem of the meme on social media, and a conversation with Hank [of Applied Pathology]
You know, this idea of the metaphor of junk food versus real food. I think that’s very true. There is a lot of junk, but it’s also educational and scientific and well thought out, so that’s why there is content like Hank’s. And therein lies the problem. I was having a discussion about this with my youngest daughter, and that’s when she showed me this meme on IG. It was funny. We laughed, but it also wasn’t true. And I asked her, I said, Soleil, you know, this isn’t true, right? She was showing me her phone again. It’s on the photo-sharing site. And I said, Right, right. You know, it’s not true. She said something that stopped me in my tracks. What she said is, Dad, to be honest, I really don’t think that anything that I see anymore online is true. Think about that. She sees a lot of garbage on her feed. So in essence, as a result, it all becomes garbage. It all becomes suspicious. It is all lumped together and you suddenly find yourself in a really bad place where nothing, even if it was true, can be trusted. Social media is a playground for people who aren’t really interested in serious discussions. And that drags everyone down. It drags everything down. Even for someone like Hank, who by all accounts makes good, credible, fact checked, vetted content.
We’re talking about making sense at this point. It’s always been structures of credibility. If you go to the beginning of newspapers, you would know that every newspaper had a different perspective, like there was a communist newspaper and a Republican newspaper, and there was business news, so we have that now. And that when I was growing up in the eighties and nineties, that was very that was more much more clear. And now it is very not clear. And so one thing that I try to do very hard is to get stuff right with the content that I’m making and when I get stuff wrong, talk about the fact that I got it wrong and why. A lot of people want to know how to walk in the shoes of everyone who’s fallible, and how to make sure their assumptions don’t lead to their wrong decision. I think it’s being too person focused because a person can’t do things as effectively as someone else and you can’t scale them the same way. and you can’t you can’t build in fact checking the same way as you as you can with like a strong, robust news organization. I think if we end up in a world where we only believe in people, that will be a bad thing.
This is obviously something that you’re quite good at. I am not saying that this is to flatter you, but that a lot of people pay attention to you, and your work is also shown in the school, so they want to educate their kids in a decent way. But how do you you will admit when you’ve got something wrong, That’s one thing you said. How much time do you spend thinking about the institution of trust? You want to get it accurate, but just the idea of trust, everything from word choice to, I don’t know your background to your your presentation, how much do you think about that in this digital world?
I mean, I think about I think about it all the time. It’s one of the things I worry about it and on a lot for a lot of different good reasons. You know, I worry about it for my own. A lot of people would be devastated if I didn’t live up to what I have been trying to portray in public. I like to say that if you see me on the internet, that’s me. You just don’t see all of me. And I worry a lot about, you know, I’ve seen people both in just mistakes and in like really intentional ways to do things that have really destroyed a lot of their credibility. And they’re not just destroying their own thing, they’re destroying something else that is bigger and it’s inside of other people. That is the thing I want to be careful with.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/6c51819a-d613-4cff-9637-afbb0016bec8
What Is Wrong With The Internet? How It is Going to Be and What It Will Be: A Curious Journey Through the Lost Generations
Hank interacts more than I do and that can take a toll on him. It is a good idea to avoid getting into it for your own good when we come back.
You can’t argue with a professional arguer without becoming one, and I have learned that over the years. And that’s not what I do for a living.
I was working on it. It’s such a it’s a weird job and not a lot of people have had it. I uploaded my first video at 27. So I was married an adult. I, you know, had a pretty stable set of situations. That isn’t the truth for most people. Like most of the people who were my colleagues in that era, we were between 18 and 20. It was much easier for them to make worse decisions. And because, you know, for all the reasons and and I kind of wanted to walk through like just sort of let let a character make some mistakes for me That is so that I won’t make it. I want to explore how I see the Internet today, how it is going to be in the future, and how good it is at turning anything into a fight.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/6c51819a-d613-4cff-9637-afbb0016bec8
How much time do you spend online? A question to ask yourself, what are you spending on the internet? An episodes analysis of 51819a with 667-4cff
How much time do you spend online? Obviously, you’re spending time online to to make your content. But just as a user of these various platforms, how would you characterize your use.
The parts that would be hard to call a work are the ones that I would want to justify to myself. It’s probably on the order of 2 to 3 hours per day. The weird thing is that like what is online? It’s online to some extent. I don’t count that, like Netflix is online. But in terms of like using Twitter and TikTok and YouTube. It is usually two or 3 hours per day, where you consume content, do social media and do other stuff.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/6c51819a-d613-4cff-9637-afbb0016bec8
Why do you think the world is going to hell? How do you feel when you’ve seen a scientific video or something that you’re interested in?
I feel like it’s a thing that you have to get good at. When I have been using it like it’s, the times when it has been destructive for me are. I’m not sure if I want reasons to be upset. And I’m. I find most of it odd that the creators of the content are saying things specifically what bugs them, and then taking a scientific truth and showing it off on the internet. They wanted to have that perspective and it’s sort of backtracks to that. So like doing unscientific things with it and grabbing something that’s sciencey and telling a story where I want to – I’m so mad. You can’t just say things! You know? And but of course you can just say things, and like I can get tied up in in being sort of angry that the world is not the way that I wish it were. And my wife can identify me when I’m in that space. She’s like, there’s something that you’re mad about that has nothing to do with what you do. You also need to remember that you can’t fix everything, like the present. It is more difficult to be a good father and partner and a good leader at my businesses if you focus on what you do and what you are good at. I believe the Internet is designed to catch us in conflict by keeping us on the platform and that is something that the platform is designed to do.
Your wife knows a thing or two. Obviously. I am curious like these these videos or content that you’re consuming that do rile you up in the way that you described. How does it get to you? Is it is it part of your feed? Is it being fed to you by one of these algorithms you’re describing?
People ask me questions so it’s a fun part of my job. There was one that I saw this week that was about some scientific stuff, and several people had seen the video on TikTok, so it came to me. And a bunch of people had tagged me and they said, Hank Green, is this true? It wasn’t. To lend credibility to your argument, you’re just trying to take something that soundssciencey. But I, you know, like, I get in, I get into that I like that it causes my blood pressure to go up. Over the years I’ve become better at realizing that. One of the things is very important. I realized this, that you need to become a professional arguer in order to argue with a professional arguer. That is not what I do for a living. I don’t argue with people for a living. I don’t use the Internet to yell at people. I use the internet to help people learn and understand more about the unknown, as well as to help them do well in school. It’s fun and that’s beautiful. And like, I get so much joy from that. And I also think that it does more good than getting in a fight. You know.
It’s easy to fire up people to appeal to their amygdala. They’re the emotional centers of the brain. And that will get a lot of provocation and probably a lot of views. Do you do you resist the urge to go that way to to to just provoke? It would probably get even more people to see your videos and share them.
Yeah, I’m lucky to be in a situation where I don’t have my goal right now isn’t to get more attention or even money or whatever it is. But what is pretty clear from research is that shouting at people and talking about how wrong they are and consequently how bad they are and like creating, you know, a set setting up the dichotomy of the battle of the conflict, is not good for your cause. It doesn’t convince people of things. It pushes people to sides. That’s all it does.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/6c51819a-d613-4cff-9637-afbb0016bec8
Online, I’m not going to be censored, but I’ll be aware of what I’ve been up to in the past, and what I didn’t know about the Internet
People when they come up to you in real life are probably very thankful and grateful for the things that you have taught them. And I imagine that it’s the same way online in terms of the comments section and stuff like that. Do you read comments and do you feel like the response that you get in the digital world mirrors what you get in the real world?
Yeah. Yeah. For most of the time. There are comments that are cruel to me, and there are people who disagree with things that I’ve done in the past, because I am not shy about my feelings on some controversial topics. And the and so I’m like, you know, I’m kind of fine with that? It it’s taken I think it’s taken time to get there and to understand the extent to which I am some, I’m kind of not a person to some people? They don’t see me. They see me as a sort of a shell that contains a brand or a I don’t I don’t know. I have grown comfortable with the idea that I have more power than those people. They feel like they can throw a punch. and I won’t feel it. And and also, if I throw a punch at that, they will feel like I just like stepped on them with a transformer robot foot like the that that you know you kind of when you when you’re on the Internet You have a following and you have it. Status for lack of a better term is what you have. You need to understand that you wield more power than you think. And I watch people all the time, and I, it really bugs me to be like, I’m not going to censor myself just because I have an army of angry people who will attack anyone I attack, and that we will come into their lives and make themselves absolutely miserable to the point where they have to delete their Internet history. I’m not going to be censoring myself just because of that. And I’m like, Well, it’s not really censoring yourself to not to to, like, recognize that you have more power than you once had.
But that’s really good self awareness, though. I mean, to recognize that you’d be punching down, so to speak, and with a pretty heavy blow if you decided to engage in that way. Whereas the flipside is that people may not recognize that they can leave a mark on you, you know, just because you are-
They have no idea. The people have been with me and John, the brothers, in making this content. There have been times when there’s been large groups of people who don’t like us and just want to have fun. They think it’s fun and we’re having a good time as well. We are not. But like, we can’t say anything. We just have to, like, live through it. You know, it’s it’s a bad part of a good thing.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/6c51819a-d613-4cff-9637-afbb0016bec8
The Future of Social Media: Looking at the Past, Present, and Future of the Church’s Power to the Right, and Embedding the Future to the Present
Absolutely. It gets better, but I don’t know how. I believe it is going to take a lot of people and a lot of time to get there, and I think they will. I think a lot about the printing press. We were able to allow people who disagreed with the church for the Catholic Church to say, like, I think that you’re doing it wrong. and we’re going to share that information. We’re going to be better at it than you, and we’re going to be more nimble than you. The conflicts that we have now have many similarities to the one that it has. That was a really messy time. It was very bad. There were lots of people that died. And it was it was a book like nobody thinks we shouldn’t have books. We found a way to have books not be destructive. We figured out how to move through that time where it was probably for the best that we would like that Like we didn’t we shouldn’t have lived in a world where the church had that much power. We needed to change into a world with more individual agency. I think we are having that now. That isn’t a discussion about young people and screen time. That’s a conversation that every single one of us in the society we exist in right now.
You write these books, and I’m curious because I feel like just reading these books and listening to you, it’s an opportunity for you to get these thoughts out through these these novels, fictional scenarios. Is there an idea or does it depend on what a healthy, idealized version of social media could look like?
The future. A little bit of all of it at the same time. It’s a really kind of beautiful way to look at it, an authentic way to look at it. It’s true. We don’t know what’s going to happen. Are these technologies going to get better? Will they get worse over time? Maybe it will be both. We cannot really do anything about it except understand them when we are using them. We can develop an expertise in how to use them well, like Hank said, and at the same time we can sharpen our awareness of how they can be detrimental to us. Hank said that being online can take a toll on someone with years of experience. He probably has a thicker skin than most. And frankly, that troubled me because Hank is Hank. I worry about regular people. I worry about young people. This is something I’m hearing about even from my own kids.
I suppose with social media, you want to make it appear like you are a good person, so people can see you. Like your life is so perfect. Not everyone’s life is perfect.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/6c51819a-d613-4cff-9637-afbb0016bec8
The pressures of being a girl on social media: a conversation with Sky, a child psychologist, and a real girl’s perspective
Coming up next week, a conversation with my daughter Sky. The pressures of being a girl online. This conversation will stay with me forever. I’m going to be having a meeting with a child psychologist to discuss the impact this pressure has on young people.
We know that’s not reality, but we still have this feedback loop of looking at perfect pictures and perfect photos. So we’re just comparing our worst days. Our worst moments are worse angles to other people’s best. And of course, you’re going to not feel great when you do that.
It’s very obvious that the average teen is living their lives in the digital world on social media. Much of this involves their mental health, their presentation and how things work for them.
Bringing my daughters along for the ride: How technology has changed my children’s lives, and how they relate to me – a candid account
Sky, my 16-year-old daughter, is the person that you just heard the voice of. Now, don’t get me wrong, I love all of my daughters equally, of course. Sky is her own person. She is the kid that every other parent in the neighborhood goes to for advice. She’s the one who knows CPR. She is the most suitable babysitter for everyone. She is really something else.
She makes some funny comments. If you’ve been on this journey with me since episode one, you know that I brought all three of my daughters along for the ride this season. That’s something I’ve really never done before in more than 20 years of being a medical journalist. My kids have not been exposed to the television and media part of my world. I wanted to have honest discussions about how technology has changed their childhoods. They have grown up in a digital world, for better and for worse.
I have friends of mine. I don’t think all of them are caused by phone, and they deal with more anxiety than depression. I definitely see that concern.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/279fb31f-f176-4d8c-af8b-afc401155ab0
What inspired you to start the season? What did you think when you first discovered your love? How did you start talking to your friends?
What was the inspiration for the season? I guess that was probably more than anything else. Exactly what you’re talking about. We don’t have a good handle on it, right?
Yeah, I think it’s different for everyone. You don’t know much about what is going on in someone’s head. Like, even like my best friends, I like, we talk all the time. Can I tell them what I know? I still don’t really know what’s going on in their head exactly.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/279fb31f-f176-4d8c-af8b-afc401155ab0
Are You Looking Good in Every Piece Of Clothing? Why are You Even? How Do You Look? And Why Do You Have to Look Good?
Sky’s correct. No surprise. Maybe we can’t always know exactly how our friends are feeling, no matter how close we are to them. My daughter’s mental health is of paramount importance to me, and I can say that with more certainty. It has stayed at the top of my mind throughout the season.
Yeah. I like, I definitely want to like, put like a good image of myself out on social media. I have had a thought about something, like, just like, oh, no, like thinking about it.
The funny thing about you is that and I don’t say this again lightly, but you look good in every article of clothing that you’ve ever worn. You look good in every color. I mean, it’s kind of crazy.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/279fb31f-f176-4d8c-af8b-afc401155ab0
How do we look at ourselves as a child psychologist? I’m Dr. Sanjay Gupta, Chief Medical Correspondent, Chasing Life
Sometimes I wish that my daughters would see themselves through my eyes because I meant what I said. To me, she doesn’t ever take a bad photo, but at the same time, I am not naive. I’m much more than just a guy who’s full of platitudes without acknowledging reality. Truth is, I have no idea what it’s like to grow up in a world full of selfies, full of picture perfect filters, Photoshop. I can fully understand why some kids might feel that they have to be perfect in this digital world. Even further than what Sky is describing, making them feel really anxious, even depressed. It feels like there are new reports and data coming out every day which shed light on the current state of our kids mental health. It is not a particularly hopeful picture. I’m turning to a child psychologist because I want to know how she feels about being a child psychologist with mental health issues.
We are seeing a lot of depression. A lot of anxiety is coming from us. We’re seeing a lot of trauma. These are some reasons young people end up in front of me.
I want to know what I can do as a dad to support Sky and the rest of my girls as they navigate this new world. I’m Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN’s Chief Medical Correspondent. And this is Chasing Life.
It was just a few weeks after my conversation with Sky that some new data came out that confirmed our worst fears as parents. I’m going to warn you now, before I read you this, that a few of the statistics are pretty disturbing. A few people mentioned suicide.
Let me tell you what I mean here. They discovered that almost all of the teen girls felt sad or despair. That was nearly double the rate for teen boys. It will probably shock you the same way that it did me. But nearly 25% of teen girls reported making a suicide plan. One out of four girls. It wasn’t easy for me to hear that from a parent. Hearing about young people in such distress, feeling alone in the worst case, feeling hopeless, like they had nothing more to live for. That is a gut punch. We can’t ignore our eyes to this. What is it that is driving it?
Basically, the numbers have worsened every year my girls have been alive. And that does coincide with the birth and the growth of the digital world. After looking over the report, thinking back to my conversation with Sky and my other daughters, I couldn’t help but wonder what role is social media playing in all this? What can we say for sure?
That’s Professor Sinclair-McBride. Her entire job is to care for adolescents’ mental health. She is an assistant professor of psychology at Harvard Medical School and has a license as a clinical psychologist. She actually works alongside Dr. Michael Rich, the “Mediatrition” who we heard from earlier this season. I learned a lot from him. I’ve been thinking a lot about that conversation. But after I read the CDC report, I still had a lot of questions, and that’s why I called up Professor Sinclair-McBride. When I asked her about the one thing that really stuck out, she responded with the one thing that was from the report. 40% of high school students say they feel sad or depressed. That’s keeping some of them from living their lives. 40%. And I wondered, was she seeing and hearing this from the young people she treats?
We’re talking about symptoms of depression when you hear something like that. And I think a lot of kids are facing an epidemic of kind of loneliness and overwhelm. There’s a lot to feel sorry for if you’re looking at things from a negative perspective. Everyone is upset about something. Bad things happen a lot. The statement from the CDC’s report is not surprising, as this is what a person trying to figure out how their brain is developing in the midst of a world altering event would think about. Maybe the numbers are surprising people, but the actual diagnostic elements of it in terms of like these are the symptoms that kids are reporting, don’t feel surprising.
Part of what you specialize in as well is is body image issues and eating disorders. Do you think that this is all related when we, when we’re talking about what we’re seeing with mental health overall, body image issues, eating disorders and the impact of social media devices, content being fed to people on a regular basis, is it too flimsy to draw a connection between all these things, or do you think it exists?
I don’t think it’s too flimsy at all. I don’t think that would go over well with the person if they start out innocently like, I’m going to follow this person’s diet or I’m also going to work out. I’m thinking of copying some of her recipes, that could be fun and simple. But you know, you can easily fall down a rabbit hole of more and more and more and more depending on your particular makeup. There is a lot of people’s appearance in the digital world that is not real. Right. The filters, Photoshop, cosmetic enhancements that people have, and a lot of teenagers who are still getting used to their growing bodies are comparing themselves. I don’t look like her. She doesn’t look like her either. You don’t know that? She has a social media feed. But now you’re feeling inadequate because of what you’re seeing on your screen.
Professor Sinclair said it was the “Selfie Effect.” The studies show that you can scroll through the unlimited amount of pictures and then compare them to your selfies. That can have a real effect on people’s moods and psychological health. And while the trend does mostly impact young girls, they are not the only ones affected. People of all ages and genders have experienced this.
I think sometimes young people don’t comprehend why they are talking about this. They know that Photoshop exists. They use Snapchat filters and are familiar with them. It kind of distorts your lens of what’s real if you only see that. Everyone has a smooth face. If, like everyone, you know, has a particular shape and that’s all you’re seeing, now you feel inadequate.
Right. I think it was a couple of years ago that the idea of someone being goals and your goals was something that everyone used to think was a trend. But like you don’t know what’s happening behind the scenes to make them look that way, right? You don’t know how realistic it is. Or maybe that’s just, that’s not your body type or that, you know, like there’s just so much more variety in life than just a few set ways of being. Those are the things that are watched and seen the most. You can see how that would change people’s perception.
Has that sort of thing been there much longer than social media. I was growing up again, and it was magazines with pictures of inexplicable models. You know, they couldn’t possibly have that skin or that body type. It’s the same thing, isn’t it?
But it’s just so much bigger. You know, there were only so many fashion magazines. You could keep it once you read that issue. But that’s the end of that, right? You looked at the images after reading the whole thing. That’s what it is. You have the stuff in your phone, and it’s always there. It’s always available at your fingertips. There are hundreds of pictures of the people that you want to look at. It never really ends. I think that accessibility is what makes it different. We’ve been looking at ourselves. None of these things are new, but there’s the accessibility of it all feels very different.
It’s just always there, like you say, with something you carry around in your hands. Do you think that a younger person who’s not yet fully developed and is exposed to these types of images will be impacted by it in the long term? Does it have an impact on their brains in terms of expectations?
If that’s what you’re seeing, it’s got to do something to your expectations of what people look like, which I think is why that like kind of tuning your feed, deciding where you’re going to put your attention, kind of creating that balance becomes super important because you don’t just have to look at one type of body on your social media. But I think that that involves having a conversation with young people to really like kind of see where their heads are around this stuff, right? A lot can be affirming. We have to look for it, but we have to like it. We have to watch it. People are trying to buy you time. Young people don’t like to be played so I talk to them a lot. So it’s important to like to like so this is this is a business, right? And that influencer, yeah, she’s doing a workout, but she also is trying to get more sponsorships. I believe that if you are willing to stand for what you believe in, kids can take that step back and be like, “okay, if you want to buy my time, I’m going to give my time to people who are standing for what I believe in.”
You are absolutely correct about that. It’s funny when I’m, again talking to my girls, that was the thing that seemed to get to them the most. The idea of being played, like you say, you know, someone’s trying to take something from them – that did seem to get their attention a bit. I don’t know if you run a practice where you care for these children and young people. How big a problem is this? There’s a question about how to contextualise this.
You should still say it even if they roll their eyes. Like, as much as teenagers are like, of course you have to say that, you’re my dad. Or like, of course my parents think that, they always say I look great. They have a smile like an eye roll. Like people know that they are valued, right? It’s important that people know that there is a safe place to come home to, no matter what. They’re going to give your eyeball roll, that’s for sure. It does matter how many children tell me things their parents say and not what they say. But like, they’re like, happy or proud or pleased. They might not want their parents necessarily always to know that. The stuff that you say really matters.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/279fb31f-f176-4d8c-af8b-afc401155ab0
What do we want to know about mental health and social media? A question that’s coming up this season, I’m afraid I can’t give up
That’s coming up in just a moment. I have been the one asking questions this season and I would love to hear from you. It’s very personal for a lot of people. What do you want to know when it comes to mental health and social media? Is there any changes to your diet you’re making since listening to this season of the show? Give me a call and I’ll get back to you. Leave a message. It would mean a lot to hear from you, and we might even include your voice on an upcoming episode of the podcast.
So what kind of balance does it look like? It usually starts with a few questions, but Professor Sinclair-McBride says it’s different for every teen.
What are their goals? They are in the school play. Are they doing community service? They have something, like whatever it is. If you do not have that, I’m more worried about you lying in your bed looking at the phone all day.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/279fb31f-f176-4d8c-af8b-afc401155ab0
What I’m saying about what I’ve done in my life, and what I can’t do in my free time, right now
If somebody is listening right now and says, okay, yeah, I am checking these boxes that they’re talking about in terms of I realize that this is interfering with my real life. I’m not doing any of the things I would like to do. What do you say to somebody who says that’s me? I’m experiencing some issues.
First I give a lot of praise andAffirmation, because it is not easy to say “hey, I am having a problem with something.” There is a vulnerability to that, as well as a humility that definitely needs to be honored. Because there’s a lot of shame in realizing that you’re not kind of living your life the way you want to be living it, right? So that’s the first step for me. And then I like to find out kind of what, before this was a problem, what did you like to do? What did you think about it? What did you do? What were you interested in? What did your friends do? So what do you want the future to be like, and then you go in the past and then in the future? It’s not something you want to be when you grow up, what kind of stuff will you spend your time doing? What are you going to do after high school? What are you hoping to achieve? What’s your favorite thing to do? What is your dream vacation? Where do you want to go with things? Because that gives me hints into what we can spend time on now, that’s not just the device.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/279fb31f-f176-4d8c-af8b-afc401155ab0
How to handle the “Selfie Effect” and the filters: What would you like to see in your kids? A question for the tech companies
Transparency. You know how the most resonated thing you said to your daughters was that it was a business. People trying to buy your time, all that kind of stuff. I wish that that information was constantly available to them. It says underneath the person, that it’s sponsored by big letters, so you should be able to see it. There is a person who sells you a supplement but really they work out for five hours a day. Like I don’t know, whatever it is just to make it really clear what’s really happening.
I don’t want to do that again, but I liked what she said about the “Selfie Effect” and the filters. I guess they’re going to exist, should these filters? It is, is as one of my daughters said, we talk about these things as being good things or bad things. Sometimes they are just a thing. They are there. People like to look at pictures of sunrises and sunsets, mountains and nature. But when it comes to filtering the human, you know, our own bodies and stuff. If the tech companies asked you how to handle the idea of people modifying their appearance in ways that make them less authentic, what would you do?
I think I have a kind of an intersectional response to that in the sense that, like a lot of the filters kind of have a very Eurocentric lens. It would be great if they didn’t make people’s skin colors lighter, change the shape of their noses, or do other things that make them more towards a certain set of ideals.
Standard of beauty that may not be from the cultural background that they’re from, right? Like, I think that would be really clutch. It would be nice if you had a filter on that said you’re beautiful, but you have the option to play with it, right? It is just a tool and something that is here. But also this picture of you without the filter is also really cool. I find that some kids like to send each other silly pictures, or make really ridiculous faces, or both, which is like a kind of vulnerability or connection that I really care about you, because I sent you this.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/279fb31f-f176-4d8c-af8b-afc401155ab0
What will we see next if we look adolescence after all? How much will we learn from our kids’ use of social media?
Right. I’m curious as to if we can predict where this goes based on who is using which technologies the most. I know this is a totally hypothetical question that requires a crystal ball, but if you had to sort of look a decade or even two decades into the future, do you think that girls or kids, adolescents that are my adolescents’ age, my kids age, they’re teenagers, do you think that they will continue to be using social media as much as they do now? Or is this something you believe is more a period of adolescence?
I think probably the amount of time is the period of adolescence. I also am very inspired by how much this generation of kids is very take-no-prisoners about things that cause them harm or needs to be fixed in the world. They may be the ones who figure out how to make that happen. I can’t imagine anyone who’s 14 or 30 will be looking at the same filters they are currently using. It is probable that there will be a completely different approach to make this feel more balanced and empowering.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/279fb31f-f176-4d8c-af8b-afc401155ab0
What do you think about your kids? When you tell them you’re all perfect, and when do they tell you you don’t look great, what do they say?
I really don’t want to be naive, and I keep saying that. I looked at the pictures of my family, I was surprised she said that. I think you’re all perfect no matter what. Yes, you look great no matter what. I don’t know if it is, but it does get to me a bit. I’m feeling myself get a little emotional thinking about her saying that because I, like it’s not that big a deal, right? The picture. It’s not. I believe she would agree with that. It’s not that something has harmed her, but that it made her feel that way, so she must have the motivation to say that. And I you know, I want to I want to protect my kids from feeling that way. And yet if I just say, hey, you always look great, then that’s not going to work. That’s not that’s not that doesn’t get through, I’m just dad saying, of course I’m going to say that, Dad, you know.
I think that this kind of stems from this, a fear of like fear of imperfection. If I am not presenting my best, the bottom will fall out and people will reject me or I will not get the things I want, that’s what happens if I make a mistake. It’s not certain if a set of bad circumstances or good circumstances makes someone feel that way. You want to keep getting positive feedback if you get a lot of it, right? And so being being able to feel comfortable in your mistakes and in your imperfection is like a continuous lifelong process. As she gets older, I think she will find that I’m worth something to her and that I’m all good, all bad.
Truth is, I will take the eye rolls any day if it means my daughters know that I care. Sometimes it does feel like the words you say to your kids don’t really make a difference. But they do. They are listening and playing the part that they have been given. That role is to roll their eyes, to be nonplused. I can ignore you, Dad. But they are listening to you. They are processing what you’re saying. They are storing that information, hopefully feeling affirmed by all of it as well. After talking to Professor Sinclair-McBride, I was more inspired to keep telling my daughters how much they mean to me. It’s important. I hope you’re going to do the same with your kids, but also your friends, your loved ones. Being surrounded by screens makes real life conversations even more important.
Source: https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/chasing-life/episodes/279fb31f-f176-4d8c-af8b-afc401155ab0
What Can We Do To Make Social Media More Transparent? A Sentence from a Senator who’s been there before to ask for Better Transparency
Professor Sinclair-McBride called for social media companies’ to be more transparent when she spoke with me, that part of the conversation stuck out to me. It is an interesting proposition. Throughout the season, I’ve asked different experts their opinions and takes on what we can do to make social media a better place. There’s a push to ask that same question to the social media companies. And the professor isn’t the only one calling for change.
Unregulated social media is a weapon of mass destruction that continues to jeopardize the safety, privacy and well-being of all American youth. I urge you senators to make some meaningful steps to regulate these companies.